Three years later, there’s a few women working with you and that’s pretty cool. Do you see many other women around that you’re like ‘oh, tradie!’.

More than before definitely… on the trams and on the trains and when you’re just walking around you see some women in trades uniforms and it’s… it’s nice. I always wear my trades uniform when I go to work. If I come home or do something after work I’m not changing at work cause I think it’s good to be recognisable to other tradeswomen.

Speaking of uniforms… Did you join the league of German journeymen and journeywomen, and wear your lederhosen upon completion of your apprenticeship?

Oh you mean the Schnupte (trousers)! That’s the German tradition of Wanderschaft where you walk for a year and a day at the end of your apprenticeship, offering your services for free. And you’re not allowed to come close to home. But there weren’t so many groups that were open to women so I was like “Nah, not my scene…” It’s not very progressive I’d say.

I love that one day plus a year, it’s very like an old fairy story isn’t it?

It is, it is still like that. There’s a whole bunch of traditions with it. You wear a gold earring and you’re not allowed to take any belongings with you when you leave, and there’s a whole ceremony when you start walking. In every city there’s one particular place where you can find refuge and you have a book with the list of places. The gold earring is the last resort: when you’re really stuck, you can sell it. It used to be that if you “broke” your Wanderschaft they would rip out the earring!

It’s such an interesting tradition and history. It makes me feel sad that women aren’t more a part of it. But I wanna hear what happens next… how this becomes part of women’s stories as well, you know?

Yeah. It would be nice. Sometimes I think maybe I should have done it, it would have been really cool. But then I came to Australia, that’s my Wanderschaft walking tour.

Let’s go back to that amazing uniform. Can you tell us a bit more about it?

They are traditional work pants, made from really thick cord. Where I was working you had to wear proper trade outfits, including the traditional jacket. You see it on construction sites in Germany – every trade has its colour, so the cabinet makers are brown, the carpenters are black, the electricians are blue, the plumbers are grey.

When I was in Berlin I went into the Handwerskemmer (department of trades and apprenticeships) (speaking German terribly). I remember these guys standing out the front in a typical tradie group, smoking their ciggies, looking gangster AF, and at the same time dressed in their work clothes which to me at the time looked like outfits from 100 years ago. A photojournalist would have loved it… You’ve taught me something new today about the colours.

Yeah. I don’t think that plumbers and electricians actually go walking, but cabinet makers and carpenters do. There’s a strong system of it in Germany. I didn’t really look into it that much, I got involved with something else: an annual tradeswomen’s gathering. There are workshops around things like Japanese joinery or framing, or even glass cutting. And there we’ve had a lot of discussions about those walking traditions, and some women actually did it and said it was amazing. It’s helped me a lot, cause I struggled during my apprenticeship. Sometimes I was like “Hmm, I’m not sure if this is so great”.

We’ve had conversations for a while about workwear and when it does work for us. We will be expanding on this later through the Women Onsite project. The good news is, there’s more workwear available for women now. But did you find it easier to get women’s workwear in Germany?

In Germany it’s definitely easier to find, and it has been for a long time. And they even had the ‘old school’ cord pants in purple, pink, red, blue, whatever you wanted. I had red ones.

Speaking of tools, what is your favourite tool?

I love chisels! I love making them sharp. And when they, you know, they go over the wood and they just make that perfect little round thing. I don’t know the word for it in English…

The curl?

Yeah the little curl that comes off. Love it. Also the really, really wide chisels and then the really thin ones. Yeah, they make me happy.

If you weren’t a cabinet maker, what other trade do you think you’d like to have?

A Carpenter. I would like to be able to do the big stuff. Build up the frame of a house, or a roof. A friend of mine in Germany just built himself a house, he’s a carpenter. I think I could learn it quite well after cabinet making. It’s a really good skill to have – to build your own things.

It’s pretty amazing, like you’re gonna finish this architect’s degree, you’ve already got your trade in cabinet making. Watch out world!

I think so. On construction sites in Germany, you could definitely see what architect had a trade beforehand, or who, didn’t. There’s a deeper understanding of how things work. The measurements we got from architects with a trade background were always right. So I think it’s gonna help me. And I’m not gonna give up on cabinet making, ever, cause I really like it, I like the trade itself. Just the culture around it can be a bit disheartening. But, it’s alright.

There are more and more women going into trades these days. What kind of advice would you give them?

I was really shy when I started working. There are times where  I should have spoken up earlier. I’d say speak to each other and find a support system and stand up for yourself.

Do you mean: if you don’t feel like you have the confidence, get that support system to build your confidence.

Yep. Knowing that you’re not by yourself, that really helps.

Sometimes we get really used to trying to persevere on our own and we’re getting where we want to go and we don’t realise that we’re missing that support network. It was the same for me with tradeswomen networks.

I think also what is important is to find a nice workplace. It’s the team that makes everything. There’s a couple of people at my workplace that I’ve learned so much from. Every time I would go and ask them because I was stuck on something or I wanted to know, how would they do it? And they would take the time to actually come over and help me.

That’s also a testament to your ability to communicate well.

I guess. I think you’ve gotta learn how to do that in every profession, not just in trades.

Fully. You have a unique perspective of what it’s like to work here versus overseas. What it’s like to have a network. And your view on old traditions… Do we want these traditions for women? Or how can we do things differently. Will this make us feel a part of our community and is it something that we want for other women coming through…

Thanks Emma :)​