Cheryl
Unwin
Fitout Manager / Carpenter
I hear you’re building something in the CBD?
Yep, it’s a 25 level hotel with 277 guest rooms. My first hotel, I’m normally on apartment projects with Hickory so it’s a nice change for me.
Typically how long would it take to complete a project this size… a building that tall?
With a project like this, we have only just started fit out and to complete the main building part is probably 18 months all up. They go up pretty quickly. We are doing a four day cycle with concrete (you normally think five or six day cycles). It’s a shame COVID hit the brakes because our concreters were flying! They were gonna be hard to keep up with!
Have you always worked on commercial sites?
I did my apprenticeship out in domestic and then ran my own business for a little bit. That was going well. Then I met a woman through NAWIC and she said: “What are you doing working for yourself? You could be on the big jobs!”. She knew Michael – then Managing Director at Hickory – and a couple of weeks later I started work and I’ve been with them ever since!
My pre-app teacher said: “You should never be standing around with your hands in your pockets. Always think: “What can I do?”. That advice really helped me, because in many ways I was then always thinking: “OK what’s next?” – even if it was just grabbing a broom. Take the initiative."
Once the seed of the new idea was planted…
My TAFE teacher had always been like: “Get into commercial. Build the big stuff”. I guess the thing was that I loved the little stuff and I wanted to be able to learn. It was good to be able to learn how to hang a door, lay a deck, skirtings, all those little things that give you the foundation for your trade.
What are the pros of domestic and commercial work?
In domestic, you get a skill base that will always transfer over & you learn a lot. You are dealing with the client one on one in domestic but with commercial at the end of the day it’s great doing big buildings!
I know an ironworker in America who says that when she’s driving across bridges with her kids she’s like: “Feel that smooth ride you enjoy with your tunes playing in the car? Your Momma built that!”
Aw yeah! I do that with my nephews when we are driving down the freeway – “That’s the building Aunty Chez built”. They think it’s really cool. But of course they were more impressed when they were younger. Now they are teenagers they are not as easily impressed with me.
Now I stand on the top deck with my workmates and look across at other buildings we have worked like: “Do you remember when we did that one”. It’s super cool that we shape the skyline of Melbourne.
It is really cool, because our labour is a significant part of history.
Yeah and I love old buildings and it’s amazing to think that some of the buildings that we are constructing now will still be around when we are not.
You got apprentice of the year some time back through the National Association of Women in Construction (NAWIC), how did that happen?
My buddy at Master Builders nominated me for that and it got me into the industry in a bigger sense. That’s where I met the NAWIC women. In fact that buddy helped me get my first job, helped me get my second job and helped me connect to get my third job! I was really struggling to get an apprenticeship. I was ringing up places to get work experience and it was really hard because they would hear your voice over the phone and be thinking that you are this little girl that couldn’t lift anything.
So how did you achieve the title ‘apprentice of the year’!? Do you have to do a test? Or is it based on the testimonials of your colleagues?
References from bosses, TAFE teachers and hard work! They figured I was switched on so I got nominated.
That’s valid.
Yeah that’s right. My pre-app teacher said: “You should never be standing around with your hands in your pockets. Always think: “What can I do?”. That advice really helped me, because in many ways I was then always thinking: “OK what’s next?” – even if it was just grabbing a broom. Take the initiative.
So did it feel like a natural progression to step up as forewoman when the opportunity arrived?
When I was a carpenter, I never really thought about it leading to working as a forewoman or a project manager. I just loved what I was doing, being a carpenter. But I did have this natural tendency to lead by example. When you do something that you love there is a natural urge to improve, learn and do more. And that’s what makes it easier for me, I love what I do. I want to achieve more and I want to grow. That leads me to where I am now and drives me to study project management.
Research shows that women love trades for the following reasons. We love working with our hands. We love being part of a team and standing back at the end of the day and saying: “Look at what we built together”. Basically, all the same reasons that men love doing this work. Like there aren’t ‘women’ reasons for doing these jobs. It’s not gender-specific in that regard. It’s the universal passion.
Yeah people would say to me: “Oh your Dad must have worked in trades!”. But my dad has never picked up a hammer in his life! I’m just good with my hands.
What did your Dad do?
TAB alongside Mum. But I always liked playing out in the garden and playing with lego. They say I naturally got my skills from my grandfather who was a boilermaker. My parents are pretty cool. They just let me do stuff to the house. When I think back now, I’m like: “Why on earth did they let me do that!?”. I used to spend my extra money from work doing bits and pieces around the house – painting, building retaining walls and so on. At some point that “maybe you should go and do this for a living” thought hit. So, I thought, bugger this, I’m gonna give it a shot, and started my apprenticeship when I was 24.
Did you consider other trades along the way?
Nope, it was always carpentry. My godmother actually went and started her hairdressing apprenticeship in her 50s & I was in my early 20’s and thinking: “Why aren’t I doing this. She’s following her dream and I’m not doing carpentry”. It was inspiring.
When you had your own business, was there particular work you focussed on?
You know, I made a good little business doing work that other people wouldn’t do – fixing doors, fixing windows, a little bathroom reno, decks, pergolas and so on. All word of mouth business.
Have you met other tradeswomen along the way?
I’m yet to meet another female carpenter…but I know they’re out there! Lots of electricians, AC mechanics onsite, but no carpenters. Which is kinda sad, it would be nice if there were more of us.
I was chatting the other day with Liam, the trainer at the CFMEU training centre and he was telling me that 5 out of 12 of their current carpentry pre-app students are female.
Yeah good! A lot of people think that women aren’t strong enough but it’s not important. Women have an amazing eye for detail. You don’t need to be as strong as an ox, it’s the eye for detail that is actually more valuable.
And now you are doing a degree?
Yes, I’m completing a Bachelor of Construction Management online.
How do you fit that in with a full-time job!?
If you want to do something you will always find time to make it happen. And I feel very fortunate Hickory are really supportive of people furthering themself. I don’t know many people can say that they are able to ring their director to say “can I have ten minutes to talk about my career?”. Even with everything that has gone on in the last few months with COVID, they make time for those conversations. It’s an amazing feeling knowing that the people above you support you and offer steps to take you where you want to be.
That’s amazing. that they value everyone working for them…genuinely.
I always make sure to thank them for it but George Abs says “I’ve always got time for this”. And I’m like, how!? You are running a massive company. But that’s the thing, they always make time. Michael stopped me and my site manager on the street recently and was like: “How are you going through this? Are you OK?”. It sounds corny but it makes a difference.
I love it! It makes a huge difference! Your Managing Director says: “Chez is fantastic. If I could have 10 Chez’s out there I would!” There are so many bad bosses in the world. It’s so exciting to hear good stories.
They are more than bosses, we think of Hickory as a big family & I’m happy to work as hard as I can for them! When I told them I wanted to learn about the project managing side of the business, George & Michael were like: “Absolutely!”.
What’s your advice for someone starting out in trades?
When I started out, I wasn’t thinking about where I was gonna be when I was 40. I like to enjoy the journey. And if you think too far ahead I think maybe you don’t absorb everything along the way. So I think in more short-term…say four year goals.
Would you say that the focus is more pursue what you love and then you will naturally turn it into amazing things if you stay committed?
Yep. You will excel further. I ask myself :“What would help me grow?”. When I was a carpenter, the answer for me was to get my Diploma which would help me get my builders license. Now its study to be a project manager. Always try to grow and learn and it will come together.
Being a forewoman looks like a potentially stressful job where you’ve got to multitask at a rate of knots. Is that accurate in your experience?
It’s very much more about people tasking than job tasks. It’s about getting the people under you to do a job, even though sometimes they don’t want to. For me I’ve worked with foreman who yell a lot & those who don’t and it can be stressful. I seem to be able to build good relationships with people and I think this is important – because you can’t be everywhere. You have to be able to trust the people you work with and have a rapport with them so that when they need you, you are there and when you need them, they are there. Knowing when to push and know when to hold back. As a supervisor you’ve got to plan and be organised, but also know that you have been in their shoes and can relate.
That sounds like a really sustainable approach. I have been on a couple of sites where I noticed that foremen were yelling 24/7. Like standard mode was stressed and pissed off and it went up from there. But that’s really hard on the nervous system right?
I think COVID is good for people realising that there’s bigger things than losing it over a pipe being in the wrong spot – a pipe can be moved. This project has a positive team attitude. You don’t want anyone coming in and hating their job so it is important to set the tone from the top. What we achieve, we achieve as a team together.
Thanks Chez 😊
